Convergent Conference

Paul and I hit the Convergent Conference today and will finish up tomorrow around 2 pm here in Raleigh, NC.  We did the trip on his frequent flyer miles (that's a good deal for me).  The conference is on the campus of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. It was great to meet up with Patrick, one of Paul's friends and Jon Rogers, an old friend from Lee.

Ed Stetzer spoke.  He always shares a message that the Holy Spirit uses to convict me and focus me back to the main business of preaching Christ.  Ed always make me almost want to be a Baptist.  Since the conference focused on the emerging church, Ed shared how that:

• the emerging church exists because the church in North America is largely ineffective.
• evangelicalism is struggling for its soul.
• we are in this place because we have forgotten the centrality of the cross.
• we must look to Luke 24 and recapture a. the centrality of the cross, b. repentance and forgiveness of sins, c. the importance of the witness.
• we must live like missionaries.
• missionaries look like the world and live radically different.
• but, many of us live like the world and look radically different.

Then, Mark Driscoll spoke.  Excellent stuff.  I watch Mark's Vidcast every week.  If I could pick a church as a backup church to attend other than Life Pointe, Mars Hill Church would probably be the place.  In watching, listening, and reading his stuff, I've had a mental picture that he is a 6'4" trucker looking guy.  I guess he's about 5'6"?  So, my mental picture of his persona was off a bit...though he still comes off truckerish, engaging, funny, abrasive, and insightful.

With that said, he has HUGE words for the Church.  He talked about:

• the difference between the three streams of the emerging church (the relevants, the Emergents, and the confessional contextual calvinists).
• how that Brian McClaren, Doug Pagitt, Rob Bell are basically sell outs when it comes to Scriptural integrity.  He presented a strong case and held nothing back.  Interesting stuff.  Without a doubt, this is the most direct, I've heard Mark address these issues.
• He specifically cited their views on the Atonement, views on homosexuality,rabbinical study, their influences, and theology.
• There were some very vivid conversations and references to the virgin Mary and McClaren's new organization, "Deep SHIfT".
• Most importantly, he spoke of how there is a generation of people on the scene now who have no historical knowledge of the Church and how we must engage them.
• If we fail to do so, the Church will continue to compete for an ever shrinking circle of angry children of liberal or fundamentalist religious people.
• Rather than embracing syncretism or sectarianism, we must practice the art of subversion.
• We must follow Paul's example in Acts 17 and "Go and see" the world.  We must understand our culture and speak effectively to it whil remaining faithful to the message of Jesus.

At the risk of making this post go on longer than it needs to, I have to say that Driscoll and Stetzer are tapping into a lot of emotions and feelings I have about the Church.  It is encouraging to hear and challenging to practice.  Great stuff all the way around.

Comments

[davidthew]

Well said, Travis.

[Paul]

thanks Travis, always good to hear some constructive critique going on in the conversation.

[Jeff Greathouse]

I have read a few of the attendees thoughts - do you know if they recorded it or if we can get a cd of the talk ?

Email me at ytminister4life@yahoo.com

[revolutionfl]

I am so jealous of your attendance at this event.

Thanks for the relay.

Hopefully, they will post some audio sometime soon.

revolutionfl.com

[Marlow]

Hey Travis,

I love Mark, I've attended Mars Hill for a bit while in college. I'm glad that he loves the church and theology. I guess some of my concerns would be this:

1. Who among us has perfected theology? I mean, does Mark have it 100% right? Example: If a baptist believes speaking in tongues is wrong, should he preach against Jack Hayford, Church Smith etc, in the name of proper theology? Does that make Hayford and Smith (or whomever) heretics in eyes of a baptist?

Did Driscoll call Bell a heretic? Or did he say he has some disagreements with Bell's beliefs & views? I think those are two really different issues.

2. By no means do I assume Rob Bell has all the right answers. I don't always agree with his theology and view of scripture. But can anyone deny the fruit of his ministry?

Maybe I missed the boat or something. Maybe for some the Bible is so black and white and they are so confident that they have interrupted scripture in such a way that they no longer question the text or they can't fellowship and do ministry with others who have a different viewpoint.

I could go on and on. I just get worried that these arguments can get in the way of mission.

Whenever I hear Bell, I hear someone who is pointing people to Jesus. One who cares about the church and seeing people follow Jesus. So it's hard for me to imagine him being a heretic.

[Josh Butcher]

I've got to agree with the above comment. I can understand some of the frustration with McLaren. He says alot that makes people uneasy. And Pagitt is just a different kind of dude. However, I don't find Bell that way at all. I really like him actually. I heard him say at the MH conference that he doesn't really want all the popularity, but if this stage is thrust upon him, he will use it to do whatever he can to give those who have no voice a voice. I can jive with a guy like that. He is all about the oppressed and marginalized.

I want to like Driscoll, really I do. I just find his views on women in leadership troublesome. But then again, I guess by pointing that out I am guilty of the same thing that Marlow describes above. Hate that.

[travis johnson]

I think the difference with my disagreement with Mark Driscoll over women in ministry is different than if Pagitt says that practicing homosexuality is congruent with Christianity. Would you not agree?

For Bell to say that the Virgin Birth is not necessary is a statement against inerrancy and/or a statement against who Christ claims to be.

There's a big difference in questioning a non-essential versus denying or questioning an essential. From that position, how can you do anything but agree with Mark, Ed Stetzer, D.A. Carson or others who are standing for the supremacy of the Scriptures?

If Christ was not truly resurrected, is the point of following Him invalid? I don't think that is my original thought.

Paul said:
1 Corinthians 15:12-14
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

I think this is worth taking issue with McClaren for his praise of the Jesus Seminar and his statement that the idea that Jesus was buried in a shallow grave and eaten by dogs was insightful. Driscoll is within his rights and responsibilities to call McClaren on this, regardless of how nice and interesting McClaren is.

[Marlow]

I do think one should try to have a private conversation with a person that is assumed to have fallen into heresy. Hersey is sin right? Therefore I think Matt. 18 takes effect. What good would it do to slam someone publically If he is not rebuke by the elders privately?

Also, the issue here is context right? This is why I hate it when someone discusses an issue when the other person is not present to confirm those beliefs.

I just hope Driscoll has his facts right & current because when we start calling people out in public that can do some major damage to ones life.

I do think we need to stand and fight for proper theology. I just think we have to be careful what avenue we choose to use. Also, the goal is restore the fallen.(not that any of these guys have fallen) I think humility is essential. Love covers a multitude of sins and mercy triumphs over judgment.

How do these two worlds collide?

[Don Brown]

Paul (from the top of the posts):

Hey, I wanted to tell you that the messages were recorded and you can catch them on the Southeastern Seminary podcast.

They are certainly worth listening.

Hope that helps.

-Don

[Josh Butcher]

I suppose you are referring to Bell's use of the spring analogy in Velvet Elvis as evidence that he doesn't belive it is necessary? When I read the book, I didn't get that from it. Probably because he affirms his belief in orthodox Christianity shortly after it. Also because I had heard the whole 'virgin' thing in a seminary class. Regardless, although I know the section you speak of was/is the source of a tremendous amount of controversy, I read it for what I understood it to be, an analogy (bricks and springs) to provoke thought.

As far as the homosexual question, I too am taken back by the lack of clarity from McLaren and Pagitt. And I also wanted to lash out and attack them, but I don't. I thought Driscoll had apologized for lashing out at other Christian leaders (apology @ http://www.theresurgence.com/apology ), which I thought was incredibly mature and set a great example for all of us to follow.

And on essentials and non-essentials, would Jesus prefer you to suppress/oppress another or be confused/wrong about theology? I don't know, but it does make me think.

[Bob]

Travis- can I get some documentation on two statements?

1. "Pagitt says that practicing homosexuality is congruent with Christianity."
and
2. "McClaren... and his statement that the idea that Jesus was buried in a shallow grave and eaten by dogs was insightful."

I'd really appreciate that...

[jesse]

thats awesome wish i could've been there. 5"6 huh? Us short dudes are making noise. Im gonna have to tell my bono story on my page

[travis johnson]

Bob, I'll hit my notes and try to give a better description of where that came in this afternoon. The best thing is to listen to the session. The citations were extensive and seemed fair to me. But, I wasn't able to check the citations as I sat there even though I plan to do so.

[travis johnson]

Josh,

The trampoline analogy was a focus of a good bit of discussion.

[travis johnson]

Jesse,

Viva la short guys.

[Bob]

Thanks Travis... I keep pretty well "up" on emerging church criticism and I hadn't heard/seen either of those so I'd really like to chase them down.
I'll check back!
I'll also try to find the mp3 when/if they post it...

[Duncan McFadzean]

Travis, interesting. I think it's important to challenge false truths but I also don't like relying on who said what type conversations - can you be a bit more specific on the Rob Bell point?

[Nathan Branson]

Hey,

I was at the conference and I want to thank Driscoll for his ability to target guys. I appreciate his speaking out for men of America to become responsible and effective in our culture(that is in part from the "Good soilder video" I watched on Youtube.

Here are a few reasons why I liked what Driscoll and Ed said. This was the first time I'd ever heard Driscoll and Ed.

1. We need men. I see men today interested in Harley Davidsons, the NFL, riding road bikes, boldering/rock climbing, refinishing hardwood floors, painting and sanding about anything, putting alternators in their Toyota trucks, etc. I enjoy some of these things myself, but I'd rather see the many men who are not believers in Christ have some person who is a Christian discipling them. Even older 40 year old men. Is that possible? I think Driscoll inspires guys who have spent a majority of thier time in the classroom to step outside and try to have enough courage to quote a Bible verse to some guy who hasn;t been to church since 1992. So thanks Driscoll. Please keep speaking on this side of the Mississippi.

2. I like Ed because he promotes missional work. One of the most inspriing things that I've been able to read are the biographies of missionaries. I see Ed as a guy who is trying to put the missionary life in America. Missionaries know their theology, but there isn't a group of "church people" to make themselves feel good about themselves, so they have to convert people so they can share with them about their theology. Thanks ED for promoting missionary lifestyles.

3. Here are some missionary authors to read: Sam James, Floyd Mcclung, KP Yohannon, Richard Wurmbrand. All these guys probably are "harder" than alot of these so called "edgy" emerging church people.

thanks,

Nate

[Lauren Crane]

Hey-Since several of you have asked, I've attached a link to the podcasts for the different speakers at the Convergent Conference. I hope listening to Mark Driscoll and Ed Stetzer will clear up some of the questions you had about the approach and citations. Blessings-Lauren

http://www.sebts.edu/chapel/chapelSchedule.cfm

[kevin kirkwood]

You have said it right. Well written too.